Power with 91 octane

[maxx]

You should realize 1-2 more hp on race type fuels.
I run alky on my race bike and you need to flush the fuel system and change oil before you put it up after a couple of days racing.
Add top oil to the race fuel.

[LTMFB]

So you don't need anything different to run E-85?

[dsrules]

I am thinking a programmer maybe one that goes to 100% or if you have a pipe and intake maybe one that goes to 200% like pc5. i pick up some e-85 and will try in ds and give results in day or two, must burn out old fuel first. I am thinking i will need to add some fuel when running e-85 on low mids and high settings on programmer!

[fast507]

Ok... Lets see if I can shed some light on the subject of E-85. E-85 is a fuel blend using ethanol (alcohols) to replace a portion of the fossil fuel base to basically lower costs, reduce hydrocarbon, nitrate, oxide and ammonia emissions. Alcohol has been a favorite of racers for years due to two things: Low burn temperature, and very high resistance to detonation. Alcohols carry up to twice the number of oxygen molecules in their chemical make up as petroleum fuels which is why they work to dilute/reduce emmisions.

The problem with alcohols and performance applications is the fact that Alky contains much fewer BTU's of Latent Heat Energy (heat energy that can be used to perform work) by volume than Petroleum fuels. This is why alky carbs are purpose built with larger fuel flow passages and jets. Therefore, the fuel volume of Alky needed to make power is huge. E-85 is a combination of these two types of fuels made in order to satisfy a need for cleaner burning fuels (alky) without having to radically redesign fuel systems (gas) in cars and trucks. Thereby allowing it to be used with nothing more than a new fuel injection peramiters being installed in the ECU. Enough Alcohol to make it clean, enough Gasoline to make it friendly. Your DS's stock ECU or a PC3 probably (I could be wrong here) isn't going to have the capacity to operate a long enough injector pulse with the stock injectors to make adequate fuel flow IF the injectors even have a high enough flow rate to begin with. A PC5 with 200% adjustment capabilities may do it with the right injector. Not to say you won't slam the tank full of E-85 and run well. I just think that if your gonna go to the trouble, do it right.

Race shops have found that E-85 is a very capable and cheap race fuel. The Goodwrench Performance Parts NHRA Pro Stock team ran it in their 800 cubic inch, 2800 Horsepower drag motors at one point. It will support much higher compression ratios than pump gas due to the alcohol volume and subsequent increase in Motor Octane, but requires a much higer fuel flow than gasoline and adjustments to timing due to the slower burn rate. You can run E-85 pretty easily, but be prepared to add a couple of things to your maintenance regimen:

1. Whether or not it feels like it, TNT your three month old E-85 fuel didn't run as good as the fresh stuff. E-85 is "hydroscopic" meaning it absorbs water from it's surroundings. Water doesn't lose it's ability to corrode base metals just because it's suspended in a fuel mixture. Even etched and chemically treated aluminums (i.e. Alodine, Dupont 226S) won't last long. I'm an aircraft fabricator by trade. Aluminum is my bidness. Aluminum is some funny chit...

2. You will cut your seal life in half. Pure alcohol is one of the most powerful solvents known to man. It will work to leach natural and chemical oils out of the rubber components in your fuel system. Special poly-vinyl seals or other compounds have been used with some success with alky, but be ready to replace/maintain any item that comes in contact with it regularly. Intake Valve Seals are a common victim on non-direct injected engines. Electronic injectors are subject to leak after prolonged alcohol contact as well...

3. As well, be prepared to add a lubricant to your fuel system. The highly solvent nature of alky works like a little parts washer inside your motor with every injector cycle. Oil is washed from the cylinder walls, piston and rings much more than with petroleum fuels. Klotz, Powermist, and even AmsOil Dominator work well to carry some lubricant to these parts. Special engine oils should be used, particularly ones with Synthetic bases to prevent "waxing" of the parraffin ( Yep, parrafin... Just like mom used to seal her jelly jars!) elements in the oil. Automobiles sold with "flex fuel" designations warn against using conventional motor oils in E-85 applications. Ethanol dilutes the additives and components in oils that keep the chemical elements dissolved. Be sure to use racing application oils like AmsOil that are alky-compliant...

4. A MINIMUM 5 minute warm up cycle is needed if you run alky fuels. The much lower BTU content doesn't transfer as much heat to surrounding components as quickly as gasoline. The guts of your motor reach temperature much slower. Now, mind you. There's not as much risk of shuckin' piston skirts in your high-tech DS as there is in an old 2-smoker like a Banshee, but you can really screw the pooch on component life.

My opinion... Run it. But, accept/counter the risk. Put in the larger injectors the Motoworks guys are using, use a good cam and High compression piston. Map it on the Dyno with a sniffer, reap the power benefits, and laugh your ass off at your friends when they pay $10 a gallon for race gas as you fill your jug for $2.65 a gallon.

I've built a quad/bike motor or two. Won a couple nationals with them and have learned one thing that sticks with me. I've never been beat by hype. Only riders. Concentrate on riding to the machine's limits and then go about raising them. If you feel like doing a motor to run on E-85, good luck, great. Let us here know how it works. But, considering the cost vs. pain in the ass factor, I can justify the extra four to eight dollars a gallon to not have to re-invent the wheel. I'm not saying it can't be done, however, and I recognize that everyone here will benefit if someone undertakes the developement process.

[TNT]

Quote: Originally Posted by fast507

Ok... Lets see if I can shed some light on the subject of E-85. E-85 is a fuel blend using ethanol (alcohols) to replace a portion of the fossil fuel base to basically lower costs, reduce hydrocarbon, nitrate, oxide and ammonia emissions. Alcohol has been a favorite of racers for years due to two things: Low burn temperature, and very high resistance to detonation. Alcohols carry up to twice the number of oxygen molecules in their chemical make up as petroleum fuels which is why they work to dilute/reduce emmisions.

The problem with alcohols and performance applications is the fact that Alky contains much fewer BTU's of Latent Heat Energy (heat energy that can be used to perform work) by volume than Petroleum fuels. This is why alky carbs are purpose built with larger fuel flow passages and jets. Therefore, the fuel volume of Alky needed to make power is huge. E-85 is a combination of these two types of fuels made in order to satisfy a need for cleaner burning fuels (alky) without having to radically redesign fuel systems (gas) in cars and trucks. Thereby allowing it to be used with nothing more than a new fuel injection peramiters being installed in the ECU. Enough Alcohol to make it clean, enough Gasoline to make it friendly. Your DS's stock ECU or a PC3 probably (I could be wrong here) isn't going to have the capacity to operate a long enough injector pulse with the stock injectors to make adequate fuel flow IF the injectors even have a high enough flow rate to begin with. A PC5 with 200% adjustment capabilities may do it with the right injector. Not to say you won't slam the tank full of E-85 and run well. I just think that if your gonna go to the trouble, do it right.

Race shops have found that E-85 is a very capable and cheap race fuel. The Goodwrench Performance Parts NHRA Pro Stock team ran it in their 800 cubic inch, 2800 Horsepower drag motors at one point. It will support much higher compression ratios than pump gas due to the alcohol volume and subsequent increase in Motor Octane, but requires a much higer fuel flow than gasoline and adjustments to timing due to the slower burn rate. You can run E-85 pretty easily, but be prepared to add a couple of things to your maintenance regimen:

1. Whether or not it feels like it, TNT your three month old E-85 fuel didn't run as good as the fresh stuff. E-85 is "hydroscopic" meaning it absorbs water from it's surroundings. Water doesn't lose it's ability to corrode base metals just because it's suspended in a fuel mixture. Even etched and chemically treated aluminums (i.e. Alodine, Dupont 226S) won't last long. I'm an aircraft fabricator by trade. Aluminum is my bidness. Aluminum is some funny chit...

2. You will cut your seal life in half. Pure alcohol is one of the most powerful solvents known to man. It will work to leach natural and chemical oils out of the rubber components in your fuel system. Special poly-vinyl seals or other compounds have been used with some success with alky, but be ready to replace/maintain any item that comes in contact with it regularly. Intake Valve Seals are a common victim on non-direct injected engines. Electronic injectors are subject to leak after prolonged alcohol contact as well...

3. As well, be prepared to add a lubricant to your fuel system. The highly solvent nature of alky works like a little parts washer inside your motor with every injector cycle. Oil is washed from the cylinder walls, piston and rings much more than with petroleum fuels. Klotz, Powermist, and even AmsOil Dominator work well to carry some lubricant to these parts. Special engine oils should be used, particularly ones with Synthetic bases to prevent "waxing" of the parraffin ( Yep, parrafin... Just like mom used to seal her jelly jars!) elements in the oil. Automobiles sold with "flex fuel" designations warn against using conventional motor oils in E-85 applications. Ethanol dilutes the additives and components in oils that keep the chemical elements dissolved. Be sure to use racing application oils like AmsOil that are alky-compliant...

4. A MINIMUM 5 minute warm up cycle is needed if you run alky fuels. The much lower BTU content doesn't transfer as much heat to surrounding components as quickly as gasoline. The guts of your motor reach temperature much slower. Now, mind you. There's not as much risk of shuckin' piston skirts in your high-tech DS as there is in an old 2-smoker like a Banshee, but you can really screw the pooch on component life.

My opinion... Run it. But, accept/counter the risk. Put in the larger injectors the Motoworks guys are using, use a good cam and High compression piston. Map it on the Dyno with a sniffer, reap the power benefits, and laugh your ass off at your friends when they pay $10 a gallon for race gas as you fill your jug for $2.65 a gallon.

I've built a quad/bike motor or two. Won a couple nationals with them and have learned one thing that sticks with me. I've never been beat by hype. Only riders. Concentrate on riding to the machine's limits and then go about raising them. If you feel like doing a motor to run on E-85, good luck, great. Let us here know how it works. But, considering the cost vs. pain in the ass factor, I can justify the extra four to eight dollars a gallon to not have to re-invent the wheel. I'm not saying it can't be done, however, and I recognize that everyone here will benefit if someone undertakes the developement process.

I finally got the time to put the new battery in and she fired right up on 3-4 month old E-85 thats been sitting outside in 90%+ humidity and 100+ deg temps in my black rig in SC(hot and humid south). I'm sold! Quad runs great! I don't need to go any further w/a tear down. We run the blue larger injector, PC 5, well tuned, very built motor. We have torn this motor apart at least 10 times during the past 1.5 years we have run E-85 in xtreme racing conditions with no signs of abnormal wear. This gas has been sitting all this time "deterorting metal"? you think my seals be done, my fuel pump toast, fuel regulator toast too, there be no way the quad would start according to the hype. Take some seal material, some aluminum like a car part, emmerse in E-85 for 6-months. Measure it before and after see for yourselves. According to the hype it s//b discinigrated Next up hope tommorrw if I got time, the YAM in the same conditions on VP110...watch it not start and everything is eaten away.....lol!

[fast rap]

I'm still trying to find out what the 15% petroleum is rated at (what octane)??

im thinking about a 50/50 blend race/e-85!!

[TNT]

You'll notice alot of this hype you read on the internet about E-85 deterioting AL and rubber does not give a time frame it occurs. That I can imagine depends on a lot of factors like the design, thickness, alloy, heat treat, chem treat, of the metal...type and thickness of the rubber, etc....

Also it's more related to longer life cycle and conditions cars see over times. Quads the average life cycle is less than five years by then most rec riders rebuild or it goes to the boneyard, racers 9 months w/lots of rebuilds/cleaning/etc... Cars in 10-20-30 may see this erosion.

I live by the ocean and as I said in high humidity and temps our DS has been sitting in E-85 3-4 months and just fired right up and runs well. Not to say given enough time it would not, but so will regular gas.

[fast507]

It seems the engineers with Can am have kept up with the current fuel technology. It's awesome that there's no prevalence of problems from guys using E85. I'm not saying that theres a problem with the DS and E85, which is a good thing, Just that traditionally these have been things to look out for.
Fuel injection in quads is still in it's infancy, and hopefully the DS450 system has been designed to address the presence of distilled additives in fuel. Sounds like it has. I know it has wreaked havoc in a lot of oem carb'd systems. Particularly ones with vacuum diaphragm slides. Hardening and cracking in the diaphragms has been seen with much more frequency in our shop since ethanol blends hit the market.

TNT is absolutely right tho, when it comes down to it, maintenance is the key.

[fast507]

Quote: Originally Posted by fast rap

I'm still trying to find out what the 15% petroleum is rated at (what octane)??

im thinking about a 50/50 blend race/e-85!!

I had the same question. I asked one of the fuel system engineers at the aircraft shop I work for and he said gasoline is is a "fungible" (I think, don't quote me on that term...) substance that take on the properties of whatever additives it is blended with. So the octane would be measured for the whole substance, not of it's independant components. I've never gotten a straight answer on the actual octane rating of E-85 but I've "heard" it can be as high as 98-101 in most street blends. High enough to support most compression ratios up to 13 to 1. The environmentalists that pushed so hard for its inception would really load their organic cotton diapers if it caught on as a race fuel.

If you are adding E85 to a race fuel blend, the only issue is that if you are jetted for gas/110 you could run the risk of running a little lean by adding alcohol to the mix because of the greater O2 of E85. You might have to shift your map a few % to get the best performance back.

[CANAMracerdad]

ethanol rocks ... it is more volitile than 110 0ctane and burns cooler .... for less money
I just do not see the down side ?????
As soon as we get a motor to be consistant,... ethanol , here we come